Posts by Concerned JW

63

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...

by Fatfreek in

according to 30% of the following definitions.

that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.

so -- are they a cult?

Concerned JW

Is this where I am supposed to fall into the trap of answering a question that by answering it would mean I accept that Steve Hassan's book which doesn't mention Witnesses applies to them in anyway? It is a book about "Cults" not established Religions! First you have to establish Jehovah's witnesses are a cult!

I also think it has been quite adequately shown that the usage of "Cult" is too perjorative a term to be used without bias. Especially as Witnesses are an established and recognised religion.

I'm also fairly certain Steve Hassan didn't mean for his book to become a "How to identify (read your religion into) a cult" book. But to be used with already well established "Cults".

160

I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses

by PenelopePaige in

jw
friends

hi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.

but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.

i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.

Concerned JW

penelopePaige I hope you don't mind but I would like to reply to Partydelights who brings up some valid points I would like to address.

Partydelights I sympathise for your time in prison and applaud your honest hearted stance on biblical neutrality about not being "part of the world" while submitting to the authority of it's rulers. But can I say that however many times someone has read the bible cover to cover, it isn't an adequate qualification biblically. The biblical principle of the Eunuch and Philip shows this. When the eunuch himself acknowledges that the bible needs explaining despite clearly reading it and knowing it himself. This is the the principle that there has to be biblical insight when understanding scripture. This would explain why hundred's of religions use the bible but still have unbiblical beliefs like trinity, hellfire, immortallity of the soul in their doctrines.

The usage of the Apostles and Jesus as intepretors of the bible give lie to your words that special insight isn't given to certain groups biblically. The bible also sets down the qualification for gaining insight and it requires prayer, being a united group, asking for spirit guidance, asking Jehovah our father specifically through his son and yes looking to the bible for explanation as well. I think you would have to back up your assumption that knowledge is gained by simply reading the bible from cover to cover.

I am trying to understand why you are saying the basis for an annointed group to be kings and priests in heaven, 144,000 heirs with Jesus rests on just one scripture in Gal. From my personal knowledge alone it is based on a vast number of scriptures which if you then try and say either "we are all annointed" or "we are all not annointed" they unravel horribly and mean you have to cut out masses of scriptures to sustain that point. The specific usage of the name "discreet/faithful slave" is a direct quote from a parable of Jesus's which for me is very relevent showing that there will be shepherds right until Jesus returns who will look after the flock. The argument that the flock is shepherdless until Jesus returns is a massive contradiction to the bible.

Bible prophecy is meant to be used but I've read nowhere in the bible that intepreting prophecy fulfillment would be a perfect science. It is like saying the Jews couldn't be God's people because they failed to interpret biblical prophecy on the Messiah correctly. Not getting biblical prophecy fulfillment right is a really, really weak premise to condemn any religion on? I'm frankly surprised you even use it considering how well read on the bible you are?

This is where the perfection point comes into it. It is not that defenders of the witnesses are saying we are imperfect as an excuse but that attackers against witnesses have an unrealistic expectation of perfection! They expect perfect understanding, a mistake-free religion, perfect understanding of biblical prophecy fullfillment, perfect administration, perfect mistake-free shepherds, a religion that perfectly agrees with their own opinions. This is a very unrealistic expectation which is bound to crumble when faced with the feet of clay which is the reality of imperfection. And what is more important is that the bible does not say the congregation will be perfect, far from it but what qualifies us biblically is our adherence and faith in Jehovah and his word despite our imperfection as his people.

63

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...

by Fatfreek in

according to 30% of the following definitions.

that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.

so -- are they a cult?

Concerned JW

I'm not sure what that has to do with my point leagingwt? Are you saying Steve Hassan personally thinks all religions are cults but divides them into harmful and harmless? Steve Hassan obviously has put a lot into this subject but his books are only indicative of his opinion on what being a cult means and I think he doesn't even mention witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses are read into his books by those that have a personal interest in classing them as a cult.

63

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...

by Fatfreek in

according to 30% of the following definitions.

that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.

so -- are they a cult?

Concerned JW

Rocky girl last time I look jews were a religion! My point simply was that Steve Hassan clearly doesn't consider jews a cult therefore he obviously doesn't consider all religions cults and so has a defining line of what religions he considered cults or not. But this is beside the point that "Cult" when applied to religions is usually used from a personal dislike of a particular religion or people that have a vested interest in playing down other religions against their own religion (this point to discreetslave that thinks a Baptist neighbour is an unbiased authority on whether Jehovah's witnesses are a cult or not)

Since "Cult" is mainly used as a derogative/perjorative term it is as Band on the Run points useless to be used in any objective sense. It is a term used for mud slinging and name calling. I think it's usage shows a lack of objectivity in those using it in a perjorative sense.

Discreetslave I lock my door and goto work everyday are these ritualistic practises? I think maybe you should check a dictionary definition on ritualistic religious practises. Practical adminitrative tools are not ritualistic practises simply by virtue of being done repetitively.

48

religion only to do with belief?

by Curtains in

jw
friends

as jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.

are other like religions like this also?

do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.

Concerned JW

Witness My Fury you basically saying Witneses don't think and are mindless drones, is not going to help your points! It shows a bigotry that is very off-putting. People become witnesses after a lot of study and looking at all aspects of what they are choosing with great depth of research. Bringing up points like 607 which is more of an attack on the bible being correct rather than witnesses is not going to help your cause. Is your problem with witnesses or the bible? The scripture telling us to "Be in agreement" is not to be taken lightly. It is sensible to have a consensus agreement as a group and the bible is very clear on that. All secular governments work on consensus agreement. It is simply just being practical. Anarchy is not a practical choice it simply crumbles as a workable alternative.

Godrulz I simply don't agree with what you are reading into those scriptures. For one thing you are being very selective about what you are focusing on and taking them out of chapter context too. 1 cor 13 is very clear that the tongues will cease! your argument is that they cease on perfection but that means you ignore the mention of us being left with "partial knowledge and partial prophecy" for a time and it is these that perfection is said to specifically end. You are literally chopping away the middle scriptures to suit your exegesis.

You then chopped 1 cor 14 up quite ruthlessly. 1 cor 14:9 is the real problem for your exegesis because it talks about speaking into the air unless the tongues are understood. Acts 2:8 shows they are talking to people in their own languages and being understood. The word is "languages" not dialects. Which tongue Peter used (isn't mentioned) and is irrelevent to the point that the original tongues where understandable languages and not unintelligable gibberish. However you try and explain acts 2 you cannot ignore that the tongues where understood something which is absent from people who claim tongues now. I like how even you try and draw away from "lunatic fringe" penatacostals showing even you have your own line drawn as to what tongues you accept as real and who you think are being mad.

You and I are never going to agree. Pentacostals have too much invested in their commitment to their own form of spirit gifts which bears little resemblance to what really happened with the gifts in the bible. Please forgive my bluntness! Your sincere allegience to pentacostalism I do not doubt but while it is an enthusiastic, popular religion it has a lack of biblical depth which personally puts me off it.

48

religion only to do with belief?

by Curtains in

jw
friends

as jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.

are other like religions like this also?

do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.

Concerned JW

Thank you for your reply Curtains. My thoughts on Atheism becoming a social religion are only recent in origin since seeing how fervent and dare I say evangelical many Atheists have become in recent years. I grow increasingly saddenned by Richard Dawkins who seems very aware of his popularity and power and is getting very vocal outside of his science field and more into mocking people who have genuine and sincere belief in God.

I think people try too hard to explain beliefs under various heading without seeing the simple answers like "I simply believe in God". Contesting my point on the origins of certain religions is fine. I think we can be very arrogant now thinking we know everything about the past when there is a good portion of information missing. You can speculate how certain beliefs grew from what information is available but you cannot really know.

As for the Bible I think it explains quite openly why the need for sacrifices in the days of Israelites. It talks about them being a prepared people and they needed to be mentally ready for the concept of a Messiah sacrificing himself for all of mankind. But I cannot agree that it is flashy in the way modern splinter religions have developed. When things are done in the Bible there is always a practical aspect to it, speaking in tongues was literally talking in another language so you could spread the good news to them, Jesus fed people, he healed people completely. This wasn't a spectacle or pretence, it was practical everyday usage.

Yet modern new-age religions like pentacostals try to exploit this despite knowing 1 cor 13 says these ended at a particular time. What is very telling is the way the pentacostals represent these gifts which is very unbiblical and leans much more to spiritualism practises. The speach is unintelligible, it is explosive, it throws them about, When they "Heal" it is very set up and again throwing them about (thinking about someone like Benny hinn banging their forheads with his fist throwing them backwards) you see none of that in the bible in fact quite the opposite when healing demon possessed they calm down the frantic behaviour. Paul got thrown out of a town because people believing his biblical message stopped buying idols and jewels. The net result is a christianity that tended to calm people down from more outrageous spectacle driven practices. I must also admit you have made me think deeply on this topic.

63

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...

by Fatfreek in

according to 30% of the following definitions.

that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.

so -- are they a cult?

Concerned JW

Yes it is an interesting thread showing the word "cult" is a transmogrified word and so is now used to indicate a "bad Religion" which is very subjective and open to people then directing it at a religion they personally dislike. Steve Hassan is a Jew and clearly does not define all religions by his definition of "Cult"

Originally the word "cult" specifically related to religions that had ritualistc practises but in recent years the ways to define it are wide-ranging, many and varied and also extremely subjective. The usage of "Cult" on this site seems to be directed at Jehovah's Witnesses specifically but also most religions seem to be also defined as cults on here because of their religious nature and recognition of God as a higher being.

48

religion only to do with belief?

by Curtains in

jw
friends

as jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.

are other like religions like this also?

do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.

Concerned JW

All forms of belief have structure and certain boundaries. It could be argued that Atheism is a form of social religion which looks to people such as Richard Dawkins as spiritual leaders for guidance. A lot of Religions have grown from philosophical origins like buddhism, Taoism that have added spiritual practises to their beliefs and come to worship their originators.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all have roots from the Bible and claim their main beliefs originate with the bible. That being said you have noticed as with Pentacostals that some of their practises are drawn from outside the bible. Like having a lively spectacle based religion that are designed to be very popular and entertaining.

Jehovah's witnesses are a Christian branch of monotheistic belief in Jehovah Almighty God the father alone and are drawn from the bible truths that were thought to have died out in the early centuries. When the then ruling Trinitarian Christians systematically and deliberately went on a seek and destroy mission on all remnants or resurgence of this belief. This christian branch finally flourished again when the bonds of trinitarianism where weakening in the 19th century to eventually become the Jehovah's witnesses we know today uniquely monotheistic to Jehovah God and using his name, specifically identifying themselves as Jehovah's People.

The biblical point that there would be a group of people identifiable as God's people by their adherance to his word is something everyone must decide for themselves when checking on a Religion's claims against the Bible (God's word). Many People reject any belief in the bible or religious leanings but they do still have set patterns of belief molded by modern culture, thoughts and popular celebrations.

54

It's all getting to me now...I let them back in my head, help

by discreetslave in

this was a big week for me.

i've been riding the momentum wave but now i feel like i'm washed up on the shore.

i let them back in my head.

Concerned JW

I am sorry about your decision to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses. You must know they are an established religion by Law. The use of Steve Hassan's book among other's on here is very dishonest. Steve Hassan himself is a Jew and has no problem with the authoritive structure of mainstream religions. A self-made choice to obey biblical directives is not control but those who are disobedient to bible directives would have you believe it is.

If you think Witnesses are not following the bible, personally I would be interesting as to which bit you are refering too? Arguments against an authoritive structure are self-defeating as most on here will accept secular governments. So do you think we don't need structure within God's organisation? The Bible clearly shows this is not the case right from Moses setting up men in positions over the various tribes and Jesus establishing the Apostles and they themselves assigning Elders to each congregation (all imperfect except Jesus).

160

I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses

by PenelopePaige in

jw
friends

hi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.

but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.

i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.

Concerned JW

I did answer you The illuminator81 indirectly. The cult argument is a lie! Witnesses are an established religion by Law. Anything witnesses believe can be checked against scripture in the bible (God's word) to the satisfaction of the person wishing to join them. The burden of prove is on you to show the bible does not have these commands and laws. As I said before all Christian religions have to measure upto God's word the bible regarding what they believe and that is what we checked them against, not personal opinion. The imperfection argument is a non-starter since we are all imperfect and so unless you are saying some men can be perfect in this time you are creating a false setting. I hope this answer satisfies you. Good bye.